2016.07.01 Dev Chat

From EteRNA WiKi
Jump to: navigation, search

 

LFP6: Babam  [2:57 PM]
whbob: Hi :)  [2:59 PM]
LFP6: The bot needs a new watch again  [3:00 PM]
Astromon: hi guys [3:03 PM]
LFP6: Hi Astro [3:03 PM]
whbob: Hi Astro. [3:04 PM]
LFP6: So it seems like there will be some devs on today [3:03 PM]
Omei: Hi, guys! [3:04 PM]
whbob: Hi Omei. [3:04 PM]
Omei: I know Rhiju is planning on it. [3:04 PM]
Astromon: hey bob, I managed to design for 6 of the sublabs the last two were just to slow \ [3:10 PM]
Astromon: open tb* [3:10 PM]
whbob: Congrats, Astro!  [3:11 PM]
Astromon: so im pretty happy about that   :D [3:11 PM]
Omei: Good work, Astro.  I didn't have the patience to submit for the last two, either. [3:11 PM]
Astromon: thanks did you actaully design for 7 or 8? [3:11 PM]
Astromon: thanks for saying omie! [3:11 PM]
Astromon: i have a question are the concentrations going to be changed before the next set of puzzles come out? [3:12 PM]
Omei: You've got to admire Eli for his patience. (Along with everything else about him.) [3:13 PM]
Astromon: or is that just for when round 2 starts [3:13 PM]
LFP6: We did vote Eli president :) [3:12 PM]
Astromon: yes you do  @omie [3:13 PM]
Omei: @Astro, what distinction are you making between "next set of puzzles" and "round 2"? [3:15 PM]
Astromon: or clone him a few times we will have cancer cured in no time [3:15 PM]
Astromon: is round two of the open tb next? [3:15 PM]
Omei: Yes. [3:15 PM]
Astromon: or is ir somthing else [3:16 PM]
Astromon: oh so its going to be a while then? [3:16 PM]
Astromon: since we are still designing (mam8ink) them [3:16 PM]
Astromon: making* [3:16 PM]
whbob: Are they going to synthesize the A/B anf TB labs on the same chip? [3:18 PM]
Omei: There will be a modified set of puzzles, based on the forum discussion; it should be about a week to get everything ready. [3:18 PM]
Astromon: oh okay [3:18 PM]
Astromon: thanks [3:18 PM]
Omei: @whbob: No.  The A/B data has been held up by the availability of the equipment, but it will be done before the OpenTB experiments. [3:20 PM]
whbob: I was thinking it might be better to modify the reporter ( in the TB labs) to work with the oligo's rather than the other way around.   [3:21 PM]
whbob: If that is possible :) [3:22 PM]
Omei: Certainly there are more constraints on the input oligos, since nature has provided those.  The choice of reporters is entirely up to us. [3:22 PM]
Omei: I think we're going to go with an entirely new set of input oligo sequences (still chosen from the larger 50nt sequences. [3:23 PM]
whbob: Maybe have a reporter that will catch the front side of A, back side of B and the middle of C ? [3:24 PM]
Omei: The reporter will be lengthened, but that comes at a cost. [3:24 PM]
whbob: Yeah, the 85 bases are squeezed very tight now. [3:25 PM]
whbob: No Dev's?  Maybe they are in the other chat room? [3:27 PM]
LFP6:  There isn't another room [3:27 PM]
whbob: Just kidding :) [3:28 PM]
LFP6: I mean, technically there could be [3:28 PM]
LFP6: So it's not a terrible guess :P [3:28 PM]
Omei: I know that once Rhiju leaves a room, it is easy for him to get drawn into other hallway conversations. [3:29 PM]
LFP6: Doesn't surprise me [3:28 PM]
Omei: So if Rhiju were here, what would people be asking him?  I know he doesn't have any presentation planned. [3:30 PM]
LFP6: Well, he wanted to chat about chat, he did mention [3:30 PM]
LFP6: Kindof a me thing though :D [3:30 PM]
whbob: I'd wonder if he had any intuition about the A/B and TB labs so far? [3:31 PM]
whbob: If there was anything that we could have done better or differeently? [3:33 PM]
Omei: I think his sense about these biweekly developer chants is that when he does come, there's not a lot of interest.  I know that's something he was going to bring up today -- whether the current bi-weekly schedule still made sense. [3:33 PM]
LFP6: Right [3:33 PM]
whbob: I always appreciate the input/advice of the Dev's. [3:35 PM]
LFP6: And from what I'm seeing, we have less and less real "activity" as of late... My concern is just that we know whether we'll continue, and if not, how we should move forward (ie devs paying more attention to the forums) and probably removing the stuff by ChatBot [3:34 PM]
Omei: @whbob, I'm pretty sure he doesn't looked at the solutions until the experiments have been done.  He just doesn't have the time. [3:35 PM]
Omei: @LFP6: Agreed. [3:36 PM]
Omei: It's interesting how much the use of Eterna chat, in general, has fallen off so much. [3:38 PM]
LFP6: Yeah [3:37 PM]
LFP6: I'm not sure there's as many people actively working on things any more [3:38 PM]
LFP6: Aside from the few people doing labs, and the increase in those playing tutorials [3:38 PM]
whbob: There are less people in the labs than a couple of years ago.  Dropped about the time that switches came into the labs. [3:39 PM]
Omei: I, personally, was never a big chat participant.  But I still notice the dynamic dropoff. [3:39 PM]
LFP6: Personally I think Eterna is suffering without as much of the game any more [3:39 PM]
LFP6: Leaving it more to new users, who may or may not retain interest in the science, and the veterans who are really invested [3:40 PM]
Omei: True, a number of veteran players couldn't make the transition.  But there are a lot of new players entering the labs with strong submissions,  too. [3:41 PM]
LFP6: Fair point [3:41 PM]
rhiju: sorry i'm late -- thanks for collecting questions @omei [3:41 PM]
LFP6: Hey Rhiju [3:41 PM]
rhiju: @whbob the response to TB labs has been amazing so far [3:42 PM]
whbob: The best thing Eterna could do to gain more members is to have results in the labs :) [3:42 PM]
rhiju: we have almost 10000 submissions for the TB labs [3:42 PM]
rhiju: ~1000 are in the super-hard A*B/C*C puzzles [3:42 PM]
Omei: There's definitely a shift in focus from player-written puzzles to science.  Perhaps the science aspect is just not so social. [3:42 PM]
LFP6: No small feat! [3:42 PM]
whbob: Thanks Rhiju :) [3:42 PM]
rhiju: this is well beyond expectations [3:42 PM]
LFP6: @Omei: I think that that's the problem. It should be, but the facilities aren't there [3:42 PM]
Astromon: true that [3:43 PM]
rhiju: we are in the process of testing the A/B labs and putting in the orders to get the results for the first TB labs. [3:43 PM]
rhiju: I am cautiously optimistic, given the number of solutions the community is sending in [3:43 PM]
rhiju: and also the community's success in prior labs, including the fiest round of A/B and the complicated logic puzzles [3:43 PM]
rhiju: i think the entire dev team shares my optimism -- am curious to hear what players think [3:44 PM]
rhiju: do you think we'll get successful calculators for A*B/C*C? [3:44 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 chat about chat? [3:45 PM]
rhiju: woudl you be willing to demo at eternacon? [3:45 PM]
whbob: I think yes, but the data will tell.  That's why it is nice to get synthesis now to see where we are going :) [3:45 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: Yeah, Omei and I have been discussing about such things [3:45 PM]
rhiju: @whbob yea we're really excited about the expts. [3:46 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 @omei awesome. open-sourcing development for eterna will be a major theme of eternacon and eterna over the next year(s). [3:46 PM]
rhiju: @whbob in terms of fewer people in the labs, i think the issue is that the puzzles have become harder and harder and require more and more time to solve. in early days of eterna, it wasn't so hard to solve puzzles and then time could be spent on discussing what worked or didn't work in recent expts [3:48 PM]
LFP6: Yeah  [3:48 PM]
rhiju: so actually several of the devs and players were worried that we wouldn't be able to solve switches experimentally [3:48 PM]
rhiju: but then we launched this new experimetnal readout that could synthesize and test 10,000 designs -- and amazingly, a subset of players soldiered on and met the challenge of submitting ideas & designs [3:49 PM]
Omei: I am certainly surprised by the number of submission for the full puzzles. [3:49 PM]
whbob: Open source Dev. means about the site and it's communications.  Not about the folding engine or flash.  Right? [3:49 PM]
rhiju: and behind the scenes, 'player-devs' have significantly enhanced the funcitonality of eterna so that we could even pose puzzles for the complex switches.  [3:49 PM]
rhiju: that's folks like jnicol and nando, and more recently omei (data browser!!) [3:50 PM]
Omei: @whbob: replacing flash is definite goal. [3:50 PM]
rhiju: @whbob, open source dev, to start with, was supposed to  be data browser [3:50 PM]
rhiju: but then LFP6 has coded up a replacement for the flash applet for chat.  [3:51 PM]
rhiju: that's an eye opener [3:51 PM]
LFP6: :) [3:50 PM]
rhiju: it suggests that the community might be able to code up a replacement for the FLASH puzzle solver applet [3:51 PM]
whbob: That is great! [3:51 PM]
LFP6: If it gives any perspective [3:51 PM]
rhiju: there's also a bunch of stuff happening with eternascript ... again bubbling up from players, with omei coordinating discussions with devs [3:52 PM]
rhiju: i think its very exciting [3:52 PM]
LFP6: The chat app took me ~ a week of concerted effort, plus a week of occasionally picking off bugs [3:51 PM]
rhiju: from my point of view, it seems feasible that (1) much of eterna can become player-fueled, and (2) many of the core scientific problems in rna design will become solved in that incarnation [3:53 PM]
rhiju: for example, players wrote a paper identifying featuare of hard single-secondary-structure design problems (earlier this year, published in J Mol Biol) [3:53 PM]
rhiju: but those very same folks have apparently written eternascripts that can solve some of those hard problems in silico [3:54 PM]
rhiju: i'm optimistic that they can write up those algorithms and disseminate via next papers. [3:54 PM]
rhiju: with any needed eterna functionality or compute power coming largely from other members of the community [3:54 PM]
LFP6: I see two things that are particularly important [3:55 PM]
rhiju: other questions or suggestions for devs? [3:56 PM]
LFP6: First is being clear what needs to be done and how/when [3:56 PM]
LFP6: And the other is making sure we keep a focus on retaining a strong player base, as it can't be player driven that [3:56 PM]
LFP6: *without that [3:57 PM]
Omei: @rhiju, what do you see as the most important role of the "central" devs to be in making it possible for the larger community to take on a bigger role? [3:58 PM]
whbob: LFP6 explained to me that the old challenge puzzles were'nt as good as Lab puzzles for submission.  Can we soon be able to take past Lab high scoring solutions and turn them into challenge puzzles?  [3:58 PM]
LFP6: And how exactly should we as players be helping? As of current, there's little direction. The only reason I looked into chat was by suggestion from Omei [3:58 PM]
LFP6: @whbob I think you misunderstand. What I meant is that the data from the challenge puzzles isn't used for anything [3:58 PM]
LFP6: And the benefit gained from playing them is relatively low [3:59 PM]
Astromon: thats a good idea bob [4:00 PM]
whbob: @ LFP6: yes, but they are also old style puzzles with few if any quad puzzles.  If we use real lab results to train players by making lab results player challenges, wouldnt that be useful? [4:01 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 i think number one priority in terms of player-driven development is retaining Omei as a player-dev [4:01 PM]
Astromon: players would gain lab knowlege playing old labs as challenges [4:01 PM]
Omei: :-) [4:01 PM]
rhiju: omei has been amazing at helping integrate ideas from players and then helping hand out development challenges  [4:01 PM]
LFP6: @whbob: Yes, but that seems like a completely new game-style. Useful, yes [4:01 PM]
LFP6: @rhiju @omei *thumbs up* [4:01 PM]
rhiju: it may also soon be time to recruit other player-devs [4:02 PM]
rhiju: we'll see [4:02 PM]
whbob: Three cheers for Omei! [4:02 PM]
rhiju: @astromon @whbob i like the idea with old labs [4:03 PM]
rhiju: bekeep, sharif, calebgeniess, and nando did that a bit in the new puzzle progression [4:03 PM]
Omei: Thanks, @whbob. [4:03 PM]
rhiju: best again would be to have an easy route for experienced players to define the puzzle content that goes out to new players [4:03 PM]
rhiju: in some ways, the more 'free-form' eterna from 2 yrs ago was better suited [4:04 PM]
Astromon: one feature I would like is there to be a link from the data browsers listed designs to the actual 2d puzzle for a visual of the puzzle selected in the data browser [4:04 PM]
rhiju: we may return to that, esp. as labs are now going so well, and if we can get help from player devs or open source devs [4:04 PM]
rhiju: @astromon that's actually available in omei's new data browser! [4:04 PM]
Astromon: a visual and maybe the ability to mod [4:05 PM]
rhiju: but there's been a bottleneck in activating the new browser for all the labs [4:05 PM]
whbob: @ rhiju: Like catagories to match the puzz;e progression? [4:05 PM]
Astromon: oH cooL [4:05 PM]
LFP6: I'm wondering if the current model of gameplay is a hindrance. As I've mentioned, I'm thinking it's a bit problematic that for the most part the game is presented as being "solve by the energy model", as oppsoed to "use all the tools available to you, the energy model being one of them" [4:04 PM]
Astromon: i must have over looked it<< [4:05 PM]
Astromon: oH [4:05 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: What bottleneck, out of curiosity? [4:05 PM]
rhiju: ask omei :) [4:06 PM]
Omei: @LFP6: me. [4:06 PM]
LFP6: Heh [4:05 PM]
rhiju: hey folks gotta go.  any more questions or sugggestions, please PM me or post on getsat [4:06 PM]
Omei: Thanks, Rhiju [4:07 PM]
LFP6:  Thanks! [4:06 PM]
Astromon: thanks seeya [4:07 PM]
whbob: Thanks rhiju, good the have you comment on our progress :) [4:07 PM]
Astromon: 10,000 submissions wow [4:08 PM]
Astromon: thanks guys have a great daY!!!   and weekend! [4:09 PM]
Omei: For anyone left: With the new focus on the labs, is there something better than chat (or perhaps a better chat) that is more appropriate? [4:09 PM]
LFP6: More usable groups lol [4:09 PM]
Omei: Ok.  So what would that take? [4:10 PM]
Astromon: chat line in the group [4:10 PM]
LFP6: It needs to be more than a comment stream. I'm not sure if you remember, but last year there was discussiona bout starting "working groups" on various aspects of Eterna [4:10 PM]
Astromon: at group page only seen by group members [4:10 PM]
Astromon: might be helpful!   take care bbl<< [4:11 PM]
LFP6: I'd argue that that's the model that needs to be looked at. A way for members to all be looking at/working on the same thing [4:11 PM]
Omei: Astro, how important is it to be "only by group members"? [4:11 PM]
LFP6: I mean, the current group structure supports that [4:11 PM]
Astromon: well i think if a few people wanting to focasa on labs be able to go to the lab group page and chat w/o disruption [4:12 PM]
Omei: Recently I have been thinking about some kind of integration between Eterna and Slack groups. [4:12 PM]
Astromon: yeah comments true [4:12 PM]
Astromon: but there is a lag w/ that [4:12 PM]
LFP6: Ooh [4:12 PM]
LFP6: As in, using webhooks and such? [4:12 PM]
whbob: @ Omei: will it ever be possible for many players to see a Lab Puzzle at the same time with one player doing the mutations? If so, a chat could have many players question the progress.  would that be possible in the future?  [4:13 PM]
LFP6: ^ [4:12 PM]
LFP6: Having some sort of "whiteboard" where it's easy to discuss without it being a linear stream, ideally realtime [4:13 PM]
LFP6: And with more visua stuff [4:13 PM]
LFP6: *visual [4:13 PM]
Omei: Anything is possible.  That's the simple answer.  There are certainly apps on the web that can do that now. [4:14 PM]
Astromon: like group chess haha [4:14 PM]
Astromon: i like that idea bob [4:14 PM]
Omei: I think the question is how we can integrate them into an Eterna experience. [4:14 PM]
LFP6: Right [4:14 PM]
Omei: It's not very feasible that Eterna could fund the development of a lot of that. [4:15 PM]
Omei: But if we can figure out how to simply take advantage of what is out there, that's a win. [4:15 PM]
LFP6:  I vote for a forum post on this when we're done in chat [4:15 PM]
LFP6: Also, using what already exists as a model [4:15 PM]
Omei: Better, yet, create it! [4:16 PM]
LFP6: While at the same time, understanding what it is that we specifically want/need [4:15 PM]
LFP6: That I will :) [4:15 PM]
Omei: I know that LFP and I have made very good use of Discordapp, which is more or less like Slack, in the last month or so. [4:18 PM]
Omei: @whbob, @astro, are you familiar with Slack? [4:19 PM]
whbob: @ Omei: No, I'll check it out [4:19 PM]
Astromon: im n ot [4:20 PM]
Astromon: what deos it do [4:20 PM]
Omei: It does a lot of things, bu i think the most crucial is that it combines real time chat with a persist log of what is hapening. [4:20 PM]
LFP6: That's searchable [4:20 PM]
LFP6: That's the thing that it touts [4:20 PM]
Omei: Plus easy file sharing, image posting, notifications, and lots of other things. [4:21 PM]
LFP6: Tons of integrations with 3rd party apps [4:20 PM]
Astromon: its a diferent chat channel? [4:21 PM]
Omei: Basically it allows for both synchronous and asynchronous collaboration. [4:21 PM]
LFP6: It's a different chat service [4:21 PM]
LFP6: Not a replacement for forums, which is more structured [4:21 PM]
LFP6: But history is kept for you [4:21 PM]
Astromon: THERE YOU GO W. THOSE BIG WORDS AGAIN [4:22 PM]
Astromon: opps caps<< [4:22 PM]
whbob: A message with history? [4:22 PM]
Astromon: so you gys are off chatting somwhere else? [4:22 PM]
LFP6: With chat like here on Eterna, I can't go back and look at something someone said a whole back (unless I ask Hoglahoo :P) [4:22 PM]
LFP6: With these services, you can just scroll back until the beginning of time [4:23 PM]
Astromon: oh so the service records chat here at eterna [4:23 PM]
Omei: And I can't use chat to communicate with LFP if he's not here. [4:24 PM]
Astromon: oH i see [4:24 PM]
Astromon: way cool [4:24 PM]
LFP6: @Astro: No, it's a completely different chat, not tied toEterna [4:23 PM]
Astromon: hmm [4:24 PM]
Astromon: ok [4:24 PM]
Omei: But I can ask him a question in DiscordApp whether he is there or not.  And I might not be there when he answers. [4:25 PM]
Astromon: is there manu eterna players on it? [4:25 PM]
Omei: But when we both are there at the same time, it becomes real time. [4:25 PM]
LFP6:  No [4:24 PM]
LFP6: Only a few people right now [4:24 PM]
Astromon: cool [4:25 PM]
whbob: Discord looks interesting, which is better? [4:26 PM]
Omei: It's something anyone can join. [4:26 PM]
LFP6: @whbob: Slack vs Discord? [4:25 PM]
whbob: Yes [4:26 PM]
LFP6: They're different. [4:25 PM]
Astromon: dis cord good name [4:26 PM]
LFP6: Discord is really meant for gaming, Slack more for development teams and such [4:26 PM]
Omei: But without figuring out how to integrate it into the Eterna experience, it will just be little pockets of isolated activity. [4:27 PM]
LFP6:  Indeed [4:26 PM]
whbob: Both then? :)  Discors says integratable to a game. [4:27 PM]
LFP6: Slack has a better API for integrating with outside resources, I think [4:27 PM]
LFP6: Not sure what Discord has [4:27 PM]
Omei: But I don't think that just announcing "OK, everybody sign of for Slack/Discord" will really help create community. [4:29 PM]
LFP6:  No [4:28 PM]
Astromon: if you had a chat channel in your players tools group others here could see your chat and gain knowlege from it [4:29 PM]
LFP6: I agree [4:28 PM]
LFP6: See, the problem is [4:29 PM]
LFP6: I want to use this tool that we want to build this tool :P [4:29 PM]
LFP6: I want to use this tool that we want to build to build this tool :P [4:29 PM]
LFP6: Just to make it more confusing [4:29 PM]
Astromon: haha [4:30 PM]
whbob: Yes, groups define goals, goals require discussions( chats).  [4:31 PM]
LFP6: Really, I want to physically sit down with you all and a big pad of paper/whiteboard and work out what it is we want [4:31 PM]
Omei: More of a random thought than a plan -- what if there were a place in the Eterna UI which was constantly being updated, in real time, with all the chat happening in all the groups? [4:32 PM]
LFP6: That would be... Interesting [4:31 PM]
whbob: We have comments, but that is more of a bulletin board. [4:32 PM]
LFP6: I'm not sure how appropriate that would be [4:32 PM]
Astromon: that would be cool [4:32 PM]
LFP6: @whbob: While true, at that point the bulletin board and chat are combined, which is a problem [4:32 PM]
LFP6: @Omei: What would be the purpose of having all chats in one place, as you described? [4:33 PM]
LFP6: Would they still be separated by group? [4:33 PM]
Omei: The purpose would to be to "advertise" the group's activity. [4:35 PM]
Astromon: and players could choose which chat interests them [4:36 PM]
Omei: I'm thinking the group would be identified, hey. [4:36 PM]
fluffy3: I don't appreciate all of the new players using the screen name "fluffy" [4:36 PM]
fluffy3: I have been playing since 2011 [4:36 PM]
Astromon: hi fluffy [4:36 PM]
Omei: If a player got interested, they could ask to join the group, so they could actually participate. [4:37 PM]
LFP6: Maybe instead of the entire chat, just have soemthing to show what the group si currently working on, set by the group admin? [4:36 PM]
fluffy3: hello astromon [4:37 PM]
LFP6: IE, bulletin board, like in a school or something [4:36 PM]
LFP6: Hey Fluffy! [4:36 PM]
whbob: I suggest Group (catagory), goals, discussions/solutions via a chat room, solved or unsolved catagory.,  [4:37 PM]
fluffy3: hello LFP6 [4:37 PM]
LFP6: @whbob: I'm not sure I understand what you mean [4:37 PM]
fluffy3: Is the TB lab closed? [4:38 PM]
LFP6: Yeah [4:37 PM]
Astromon: yes it closed yesterday [4:38 PM]
Omei: This round is.  The next round will start in about a week. [4:38 PM]
whbob: @ LFP6: like you said above, bulletin board.  [4:39 PM]
fluffy3: sounds like you are all in a group meeting.  gtg [4:39 PM]
LFP6: What do you mean by category, and solved/unsolved? [4:39 PM]
Astromon: seeya fluffy [4:40 PM]
Astromon: im off 2 post all this as dev chat whoevers doing that! [4:40 PM]
Astromon: seeyas late<>>> [4:41 PM]
Omei: Bye, Astro. [4:41 PM]
whbob: A group could have more than one catagory. A catagory could have more than one goal.  goals need solutions.  Many goals may need to be solved to solve a catagory. [4:41 PM]
LFP6: Oooh [4:41 PM]
LFP6: Neat [4:41 PM]
whbob: A forum could post groups, catagories and goals, but chats would be needed to discuss and present real time ideas before solutions can be posted. [4:44 PM]
LFP6: I think this is more than just a forum [4:44 PM]
whbob: Right, I keep flipping between long term and short term problems :) [4:45 PM]
Omei: I need to go now. Talk later. [4:48 PM]
LFP6: All right, later Omei [4:47 PM]
whbob: @ LFP6: as you said above: we need to define what we want/ need to achieve.  Then we need to communicate and have achievable golas to complete. [4:49 PM]
LFP6: We need to know what we want to be able to do with groups [4:48 PM]
whbob: @ Omei: thanks for everything ;) [4:49 PM]
whbob: @ LFP6: right now, we want to solve the TB labs.  Players need a place to post their ideas such as what oligo's, what reporters?   [4:51 PM]
whbob: Then, players need to chat to input their thoughts. [4:52 PM]
LFP6: What about on a broader scale? Developing new tools, or analysis, even papers [4:52 PM]
whbob: Yes, same process, but a much broader scope, yes? [4:53 PM]
LFP6: Possibly [4:53 PM]
LFP6: I'm not sure if everything classifies as a problem/solution mindset [4:54 PM]
LFP6: But a lot can [4:54 PM]
whbob: IT's how I think :) I always try to think that a task has an end.  Maybe the entire subject is ongoing, but I like to break subjects into smaller segments. [4:56 PM]
LFP6: I think that does make a lot of sense [4:56 PM]
LFP6: But also, maybe simultaneously think about it as a  repository for information [4:56 PM]
LFP6: Make the wiki useful again lol [4:57 PM]
whbob: I hope you can all have a good discussion about this at Eternacon :) [4:58 PM]
LFP6: Yes, I hope so as well [5:00 PM] 
Personal tools
Main page
Introduction to the Game